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Inside this CEO's Energy Transition Playbook

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Balancing reliability, affordability, and sustainability—often called the energy trilemma—is one of the biggest challenges facing utility leaders today. And in Michigan, that challenge is magnified by aggressive decarbonization goals, aging infrastructure, and severe weather events.

In this episode of Power Perspectives, podcast host Jason Price visits the DTE Energy headquarters in Detroit to chat face-to-face with Jerry Norcia, Chairman and CEO of DTE Energy. In this conversation, Jerry highlights how the company is tackling these timely and critical challenges head-on. From Michigan’s ambitious clean energy targets to grid modernization, energy affordability, and extreme weather preparedness, Jerry shares DTE’s strategy for navigating this pivotal moment in the energy transition.

Listen into this conversation from the C-Suite as Jerry highlights:

  • Michigan’s aggressive clean energy mandates and how DTE is adapting
  • DTE’s $6 billion grid modernization investment to enhance reliability
  • The impact of extreme weather on Michigan’s electric infrastructure
  • Balancing affordability and major infrastructure investments
  • Ensuring low-income customers have access to energy assistance programs

Listen alongside podcast host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester as Jerry walks us all through the state of the industry today and into the future from his front row seat.

Prefer to Read vs. Listening? Scroll Down to Read Transcript

Want to watch the conversation? Video of Power Perspectives are now being posted to YouTube

Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Power Perspectives: West Monroe

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price:

Balancing the energy trilemma of reliability, affordability, and sustainability is no small feat for today's utility leaders, and the stakes are even higher when the state mandates push for aggressive decarbonization goals, aging infrastructure faces increasingly severe weather, and the customer base includes many struggling to make ends meet. How do you navigate these challenges while keeping the lights on and the bills in check? Today on Power Perspectives, we're going to discuss the challenges of this trilemma in Michigan with the chairman and CEO of DTE Energy, Jerry Norcia. And as a note to our listeners, 2025 has brought a new avenue to our podcast.

We have video versions that you can now access and watch. So if you're used to just listening on your podcast app, I recommend you check out the show notes for the link where you can follow Power Perspectives on YouTube and watch these interviews. I'm Jason Price, your host coming to you from right in the headquarters of DTE Energy and beautiful downtown Detroit, Michigan. While joining me virtually from Orlando, Florida is Energy Central producer and community manager, Matt Chester. Matt, the energy trilemma is familiar territory for the Energy Central community. What are some common themes you're hearing from the community?

 

Matt Chester:

Jason, you're definitely right that the trilemma is a recurring theme in our Energy Central community and it always sparks debate and collaboration. The common threads that I'd say that come up time and again are just the need for utilities to innovate through technology in order to meet those reliability and sustainability goals at the same time. But similarly, affordability remains a constant pressure driving discussions on how can we balance decarbonization efforts with rate structures that protect especially vulnerable customers and populations. So it's a delicate balancing act and I'm definitely eager to hear Jerry's perspective on how DTE Energy is tackling these challenges in Michigan's energy landscape.

 

Jason Price:

Thanks, Matt. And before we dive in, I want to thank West Monroe, our sponsor of today's episode. For those not aware, Michigan has set some of the country's most aggressive clean energy standards, 80% clean energy by 2035 and 100% by 2040. At the same time, Michigan ranks among the top 10 coal dependent states and has faced mounting challenges with electric reliability due to extreme weather. Under Jerry's leadership, DTE has doubled down on the investments, from transitioning to cleaner energy to fortifying the electric grid, all while striving to maintain affordability in a region where economic challenges loom large. So today we'll be discussing DTE's approach and addressing these tough questions facing this 139-year-old utility. Jerry Norcia, welcome to Power Perspectives.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Hello Jason, and welcome to Detroit.

 

Jason Price:

Thank you.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Great to see you here.

 

Jason Price:

Good to be here. And thank you for your time and we're looking forward to this spirited conversation that we're going to have today.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Absolutely. Looking forward to it.

 

Jason Price:

Jerry, before we dive into the meaty topics, I want to give you the chance to introduce yourself. So can you share a brief overview of your journey at DTE Energy and how your leadership role has evolved over the years?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Well, I came to DTE in 2002, and I was an energy executive for a gas company in Canada, in Ontario, just across the river here from Detroit. And I was recruited to come here and build the midstream business, and that evolved into a role of running the gas utility along with the midstream business and then further revolutions of running customer service, the electric company, and then ultimately ended up in this role a little over five and a half years ago.

And it's been a great journey and working with some tremendous people, but also being part of the, what I would call, renaissance or rebirth of the city of Detroit, watching all that happen over my time here at DTE has been just an incredible part of that journey, both the trials and tribulations of that and the challenges, and then also being part of what I would call a renaissance in the utility industry that I know we're going to talk about. I mean, how exciting is that? I mean, I feel fortunate that I've been blessed with this opportunity to have a once-in-a-lifetime set of opportunities like that.

 

Jason Price:

Well, let's talk about the big picture shall we? As we said, Michigan has some of the most ambitious clean energy mandates in the country. At the same time, the state faces significant challenges, from its dependence on coal reliability to reliability issues due to extreme weather. Can you share how DTE is approaching these challenges and what's driving your strategy?

 

Jerry Norcia:

I would say as we position, again, the greatest opportunity of a lifetime, which also comes with the greatest challenges of a lifetime. When there's great opportunity, there's always a slew of challenges that you face. And let's talk about the opportunity. So what is it and what's driving it? So much of America's infrastructure in the electric business and gas business was built after World War II. So it's aging and it's also facing tremendous pressure from more and more severe weather patterns. There's also a societal need to move to cleaner sources of energy. So when you bring all that together, we really have two fundamental transformations underway at our company and also across the industry for that matter. So replacing aging generation equipment, so the way we produce power has started to fundamentally evolve as our coal plants...

We were a very coal-heavy state when I got here and will continue to be somewhat coal-heavy, but we're on a fundamental transition. Transforming those assets from coal to other sources of energy like wind and solar and battery systems, and also high-efficiency gas turbines, and now the evolution of carbon capture and storage, the prospect of small modular nuclear reactors. We own a nuclear plant here based on generation of 1200 megawatt nuclear plant that went into service in 1985. So that evolution on its own would be huge challenge for a company like ours to really transform and change and reinvent the way we produce power. Now, the second transformation, if that wasn't enough, the first transformation is that we've got an aging grid that's being attacked by more and more severe weather on a more regular basis.

Storms that we used to get once every 50 years we're getting every two or three years. And while the grid 10 years ago, 15 years ago, could take all of that and be relatively resilient, now we're finding ourselves in a situation where we're making huge investments to really transform our grid and the way we deliver power. And all of that comes with great challenge, the pace of investment, and also I would say at the highest level is creating an alignment between the engineers and the policy makers around the principles of safe, reliable, clean, and affordable. And those are in constant conflict with one another. So just to give you an example, if you wanted to move the pace of decarbonization up in a fundamental way, you find yourself challenged with a reliability question because we need base load resources to keep the grid alive 24/7, especially in the industrial heartland of America.

We've got things running 24/7 here all the time, very large assembly plants and other manufacturing facilities, refineries. So all of that, and of course customers have a high expectation of reliability that sometimes stands in conflict with how much intermittent resources will you put on a grid before you destabilize the grid. So that's a challenge. Affordability is a huge challenge. We've got a lot of customers. We've got 400,000 customers in our service territory that live below the 200% federal poverty level. So we have to be cognizant of that. And so pace matters, programs matter to support reliability and affordability. And so there's a lot in flux as you think about the four principles of designing and executing this transformation.

And I think the alignment and consensus between engineers and policy makers is really fundamental.

 

Jason Price:

I want to ask you about the decarbonization efforts.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Sure.

 

Jason Price:

A really ambitious program that you've been driving, including the goal to hit net-zero by 2050. Can you share more about the progress DTE may trade these goals and what's next on the horizon?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Well, certainly we've had two evolutions of, actually three evolutions of legislation now, state legislation. The first mandate for renewable resources was 2008. There was a 2008 energy legislative package that set a 10% goal for renewable sales, if you will. 10% of our sales had to come from renewable resources. That was the beginning of the journey when we were working with state government to set these policies. The second evolution was in 2016, and then the latest one was 2023. And the 2023 one really built on the first two packages and is the one that you quoted. And what I like about that package is, even though it's very aggressive, it gave us the opportunity to use all technologies.

It allows us to use wind, solar, short duration battery systems, that's what's available today. And if long duration batteries become available at some point, we'll avail ourselves with that technology. We can use gas with carbon capture. So we've got what I would call an aggressive, but also one of the most pragmatic and achievable legislative packages because we can use all technologies that become available to us. So I'm confident we can achieve it, and we also have the right pace through 2040. And that was a very... The use of all technologies and also the timing was something where we were able to bring engineers and policymakers together so that we could create alignment.

And I'm thankful that we had a governor that was willing to listen to all of that and find the middle ground for what I would call one of the most pragmatic packages in the country.

 

Jason Price:

Let's talk about extreme weather. So Michigan's no exception on the extreme weather temperatures. Can you talk about how you shape priorities given extreme weather on the grid?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Well, there's two things that we do and it's evolved and it continues to evolve for the better. So I would say if we go back a decade or so, we started to see wind velocities. The number of days wind velocity was about 40 miles an hour and about a 30 or 40% slope in terms of on an increasing trend. So we embarked on a very aggressive tree trim program where we started to really get more aggressive about creating more clearance between our wires and the trees. Whereas before our linemen would accuse me of our line workers that we were sort of trying not to make anybody unhappy, but I would say through great community engagement, we learned how to really engage the community in this problem. And it's a door-to-door campaign.

I mean, we've got people on the ground going door to door saying, "Hey, we need to cut these trees, take these trees, trim these trees." And we explained to the homeowner exactly what needs to be done. And 95% of the time we're able to execute our aggressive tree trim agenda. That started to make a difference about 10 years ago. So we created an accelerated tree trim program where we went from investing $65 million a year in tree trim to $200 million a year, and we're in the last year of that sort of aggressive tree trim program. And then we can go to a more levelized approach, but we've got 1100 people, 1200 people every day, six days a week, trimming trees. We're doing about 6,500 miles a year, so very aggressive tree trim program. So that was the beginning of the journey.

Then we said, "Well look at now when we're clearing the trees, we're able to see the condition of our equipment more clearly." And so we embarked on a pole top maintenance program where you're replacing equipment on top of the pole. Sometimes we're replacing the pole depending on the condition of the pole. We started out an aggressive program around what I would call pole top maintenance and making sure that we got very high quality infrastructure in the face of these worsening weather patterns. The third thing we embarked on was automation. And so we built a very large modern control center, right behind our headquarters here where we can bring in tremendous amounts of data, assess the data in a central way, and then start operating the system remotely.

But we needed to start placing control devices on the grid in order to be able to accomplish that. So those are some of the examples of the key initiatives that we're embarking on. And then lastly, just a bit of detail in our system, we've got 46,000 miles of circuitry that serves 2.3 million customers. A third of it is underground, the other thirds up in the air, but relatively new and high voltage spoke 13,200 volts. And then a third of it is really old. 48-hour bolt system underground system, which is not known to be one of the safer systems in the industry. It's a very old system. One of our legacy systems in our oldest cities like Detroit, the Grosse Pointes, Birmingham that needs to be replaced. It will not take these worsening weather patterns.

We've got about 15,000 miles of that stuff and we basically got to replace it. And so we've embarked on that journey as well. So that's the fourth. So tree trimming, automation, pole top maintenance, and then replacement of a legacy system. And that's probably a 15 or 20 year journey. Each one of them has a timeline, but that's the longest one, is the replacement of 15,000 miles. With all of that, in the first five years, we've made a commitment to our customers to reduce the frequency of outages by 30% and duration by 50%. That's going to take about $9 billion to achieve. So very large gap in the program.

 

Jason Price:

Well, let's talk now about the IRP.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Yes.

 

Jason Price:

All right, so your integrated resource plan settlement in 2023 was a major milestone.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Yes.

 

Jason Price:

What were some of the key components of that plan and how do you position DTE to meet Michigan's clean energy standards?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Well, the IRP, the integrated resource plan settlement sort of mirrors... It came before the legislation that happened that same fall. So we had two major events that year. We got the IRP settled, and then legislation was passed. I would say they're not that different. And also what happened in the middle is President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act, which provided a huge benefit to this journey for our customers that we were embarking on to the tune of almost, I think about a billion and a half to $2 billion of value in the form of tax credits.

So basically tax relief lowered the taxes on being able to make these investments and that all flows to the customer. So it aligns with the targets that we had talked about, the 2035 and 2040 targets. So there's strong alignment between the IRP, the legislation, and then that acceleration that we're looking for in legislation was actually fueled by the IRA in terms of making it more affordable for our customers.

 

Jason Price:

I want to talk more about the investments that's been under your leadership since you've been on board. So investments in grid reliability have ramped up significantly since you've taken over. $6 billion over the past five years, and that's compared to 3.5 billion in the previous five years. Plus there was a recent announcement by the DOE of these long guarantees around the 0.8 billion for both gas upgrades and investments in renewables. Given your previous investments and these loans, walk us through the approach of your modernization investment plan.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Sure. So we talked a little bit about that, but if you revisit history back in 2013-14, we're investing about $200 million a year in the grid. And I came to the conclusion with my engineers at that point in time that all we were doing was fixing things that broke. We weren't getting ahead of the game. And so we started ramping investments, and today we're investing about a billion and a half a year into the grid. And so like the figures that you mentioned looking forward, last five years, 6 billion, next five years, 9 billion and 3.5 before that. So we've doubled doubled, right? So pretty significant increase in the level of investment that's going into the grid, and we're timing that.

We're trying to pace that so that we don't break the affordability compact with our customers. But again, the four areas, the four pillars of that investment and that cash going into the grid is tree trim, modernization of the pole top equipment and the poles themselves, the automation, which we'll have done in five years. We're trying to get on a pole top maintenance cycle over the next five or six years. So we're aggressively going after... We aggressively already went after tree trim, kind of near the end of that, what I call accelerated program. Now we've fundamentally accelerated automation and we've also are in a fundamental acceleration as it relates to pole top maintenance.

And then the rebuild is the fourth pillar, which is going to be a longer term horizon, 15,000 miles. We're going to try to ramp to about a thousand miles a year over the next three or four years.

 

Jason Price:

Jerry, one of DTE's unique challenges is serving a customer base with below average level incomes, particularly in Detroit. How do you balance the need for massive investments while keeping energy affordable for all customers? And what types of programs has DTE instituted to help these customers?

 

Jerry Norcia:

That's a great question. Serving low-income customers has been a personal passion of mine since I've arrived at DTE in 2002. I saw the evolution of the auto industry going through great struggles, the city going through great struggles, and the entire state going through a great struggle from 2005 time period through 2011. This great struggle was creating tremendous hardship for our customers in their ability to pay their bills. And I got a call one day from a dear friend of mine, his name is Heaster Wheeler. At that time, he was the number two guy at the NAACP. And he says, "Jerry, why do you treat poor people poorly?" I said, Heaster, "What are you talking about?

And he said, "Well, have you ever been to a DHHS office, the Department of Health and Human Services office in Michigan?" I said, "No." He says, "Have you ever been to one of your offices?" And that was early in my journey as the leader of the gas company at that time. And I said, "I haven't, but I will go." So I went to one of our inner city offices and there was customers lined up around the block trying to pay their bills after they had received social assistance. And I decided to visit Department of Health and Human Services office. And again, lines, four hours long, three hours long, people waiting to get energy assistance. And I thought, there's got to be a better way, and they can only get assistance after they had a shutoff notice or they were shut off by DTE.

So I said, "There's got to be a more dignified way to give our customers energy assistance." So I teamed up with a commissioner, at that time was Commissioner Martinez was very interested in the low-income community. She had grown up in Detroit and understood the plight of a low-income customer. So we started experimenting with different programs. And the one we came up with was very simple. We said, "Look at what we should charge customers is what they can afford, and also give them an incentive to stay on these plans and also make sure that we're watching energy efficiency." Right? That there's an incentive to conserve energy. And so we came up with those programs just to make it simple, that if you could afford 75 bucks a month for your bill, that's what we charge you.

And the way we would buy down the bill is with the energy assistance dollars that were being provided anyway by the government. We weren't asking for more money, we were just asking for a different way to apply to dollars that provided more dignity in the process. In other words, don't allow somebody to get six months behind. Then they got a $2,000 problem, not they got to go line up at DTE, line up at Department of Health and Human Services office. It's just was a very undignified and unsafe process because it led to sometimes horrible behavior out of desperation by our customers. And it was hugely successful. We went from the old process, which was 15% successful to 90% successful.

Then we wanted to make the program bigger. So we activated our community activists here in Detroit, and we marched together to Lansing to work with legislators to pass an energy assistance bill in 2013, it was the first one. And that bill put a dollar per meter charge, every electric meter in the state that would go to an energy assistance pool that would help fund this very unique program. And again, in 2023, 2024, I'm sorry, we embarked on another legislative agenda, because energy bills had grown, and we basically just recently passed legislation that the governor just signed early in January that doubles that energy assistance pool.

And so when you ask how are we dealing with the most vulnerable, we've created this larger safety net as bills, have some pressure on them as we make this transition, we don't want to leave our low income customers behind on what I would call an essential service. And that's how we've created these safety nets and these pools. What's interesting, not only are they 95, 90% successful, but 70 to 80% of the customers they're on these programs changes every year. So that means people are using it as a bridge to a better future. And that's something that we're really excited about and happy about.

 

Jason Price:

That's great to hear. Jerry, we really appreciate your insight here and we've come to the point in the show where we get to learn a little bit more about you, the person rather than you, the professional. We call it the lightning round. We're going to throw a set of questions at you. We ask you to respond by either one word or phrase. You can elaborate a little bit beyond that. But the real question right now is, are you ready?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Yes, you bet.

 

Jason Price:

Let's take it. All right.

 

Jerry Norcia:

They got a saying in Detroit, if you stay ready, you ain't got to get ready.

 

Jason Price:

Yes. I like that. All right. Question number one. Who in your household tends to leave the lights on the most?

 

Jerry Norcia:

That's easy. That's me.

 

Jason Price:

What's your top recommendation for people visiting Detroit, perhaps off the beaten path of typical tourist stops?

 

Jerry Norcia:

I would say all you have to do is walk around downtown Detroit and you'll find some really cool restaurants, little holes in the wall, great food like burger joints or even... I'm just going to name a few. I am going to miss some. But Nemo's, it's been around for a very long time. It used to be beside the old Tiger Stadium. They make really good food like burgers, sandwiches, fish and chips, that kind of stuff. Really cool places like that. There's many, and I'm not saying there's not more than Nemo's. That's the one that comes to mind. Going to Hamtramck, which traditionally used to be a Polish section, great Polish food and restaurants there.

I mean, there are really, really a lot of cool places. And Dearborn, which is outside of Detroit, got great Middle Eastern food. So I'm a foodie. I love food, trying different foods. My background is Italian. There's some great Italian restaurants. Got three or four that I love. So if you are looking for recommendation, give me a call.

 

Jason Price:

All right. Good to know. All right. Who are your role models growing up and who are they now?

 

Jerry Norcia:

I would say my parents are immigrants from Italy and they came here to work and work hard and also make sure that their kids got an education. And I've tried to follow in their footsteps. So all three of my kids are working and they all have an education. So I feel that that's a key role model. In terms of leaders, the one leader that I've read the most about has been Winston Churchill. And I just think his courage and his determination and perseverance is a role model for any leader that is facing adversity. I mean, one of my favorite sayings that he had is, if you're going through hell, keep moving. So it's just great advice.

 

Jason Price:

We're collecting lightning rounds from past podcast guests to ask future guests. So Mark Braby of Synop recently asked this one for a future guest. If you could have dinner with any historical figure, who would it be and why?

 

Jerry Norcia:

I think it's the same one that I mentioned. Winston Churchill, he'd be a really interesting guy to have a dinner with and a few drinks. And I like smoking cigars, so maybe a cigar with him.

 

Jason Price:

All right, now it's your turn. What lightning round question do you want to challenge a future guest to answer? And it can be topical and related to energy, or it can be an off the wall question.

 

Jerry Norcia:

I was reading some literature on leadership at the CEO level, and I guess by curiosity is what are the three or four characteristics of a CEO that you think are important in today's world of ever-changing dynamics, whether it's weather, politics, technology, and so on.

 

Jason Price:

And lastly, what excites you the most about the future of energy?

 

Jerry Norcia:

What I'm really excited about is that we are experiencing a once in a lifetime opportunity with also once in a lifetime set of challenges, unique challenges. And I tell all the young people coming into this company, how fortunate are you to be the architect and a set of people that get to execute all of this over the next 20 years because it's going to be another 20 year journey.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic. Thank you, Jerry. We want to give you the final word. So knowing that you've got an audience of CEOs and distinguished people in the energy industry listening in, what lessons from the journey you would like to share with other utility CEOs facing similar challenges as you?

 

Jerry Norcia:

Sure. So I would say the most important asset that we have, and sometimes this gets overused, is our people. I think the secret sauce for me as a leader and for DTE has been employee engagement. And there's three things I can tell you that I would give you advice to do. Know your people, care about your people, and lead your people. And sometimes leading your people is not always pleasant, but you need to lead them. But you need to do the first two right to have the privilege of leading.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic. And I'm sure that our listeners will have lots of questions and comments, and we'll encourage you to stay engaged with them, and we'll look forward to having you on the podcast sometime in the future. Thank you again for your time.

 

Jerry Norcia:

Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic. We also want to give a shout out of thanks to the podcast sponsors that made today's episode possible. Thanks to West Monroe. West Monroe is a leading partner for the nation's largest electric gas and water utilities, working together to drive grid modernization, clean energy, and workforce transformation. West Monroe's comprehensive services are designed to support utilities in advancing their digital transformation, building resilient operations, securing federal funding, and providing regulatory advisory support.

With a multidisciplinary team of experts, West Monroe offers a holistic approach that addresses the challenges of the grid today and provides innovative solutions for a sustainable future. Once again, I'm your host Jason Price. Plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com, and we'll see you next time on Power Perspectives.

 

About Energy Central Podcasts

Power Perspectives features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. At least twice monthly, we connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network community member to discuss compelling topics that impact professionals who work in the power industry. Some podcasts may be a continuation of thought-provoking posts or discussions started in the community or with an industry leader that is interested in sharing their expertise and doing a deeper dive into hot topics or issues relevant to the industry.

Power Perspectives is the premiere podcast series from Energy Central, a Power Industry Network of Communities built specifically for professionals in the electric power industry and a place where professionals can share, learn, and connect in a collaborative environment. Supported by leading industry organizations, our mission is to help global power industry professionals work better. Since 1995, we’ve been a trusted news and information source for professionals working in the power industry, and today our managed communities are a place for lively discussions, debates, and analysis to take place. If you’re not yet a member, visit www.EnergyCentral.com to register for free and join over 200,000 of your peers working in the power industry.

Power Perspectives is hosted by Jason Price, Community Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

If you want to be a guest on a future episode of Power Perspectives, let us know! We’ll be pulling guests from our community members who submit engaging content that gets our community talking, and perhaps that next guest will be you! Likewise, if you see an article submitted by a fellow Energy Central community member that you’d like to see broken down in more detail in a conversation, feel free to send us a note to nominate them.  For more information, contact us at [email protected]. Podcast interviews are free for Expert Members and professionals who work for a utility.  We have package offers available for solution providers and vendors. 

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