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Episode #149: 'Surfing Into the Wave Energy Future' with Jan Skjoldhammer, CEO of NOVIGE [an Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast]

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Everyone's familiar with the leading renewable energy technologies contributing to the grid, from solar to wind to hydropower. But additional lifting in the clean energy future will undoubtedly come from some emerging technologies as well, including the up and coming innovations in wave energy. In this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast, the conversation will ride the waves of innovation in the renewable energy sector, exploring the untapped potential of wave energy.

Specifically, this episode will welcome on the CEO of NOVIGE, Jan Skjoldhammer. As one of the drivers of this innovative area of renewables, Jan shares with podcast host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester the ups and downs of this emerging field, looking at the challenges, breakthroughs, and the key player driving the wave energy revolution. Listen in as Jan provides insights into the fascinating world of wave energy generation and its role in transforming our energy landscape today and into the future.

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Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: West Monroe. 

 

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Did you know? The Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast has been identified as one of the industry's 'Top 25 Energy Podcasts': blog.feedspot.com/energy_podcasts/ 

 

TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price:

Welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast. This is the podcast that brings leading minds from the energy industry to discuss the challenges and trends that are transforming and modernizing our energy system. And a quick thank you to West Monroe, our sponsor of today's show. Now, let's talk energy.

I'm Jason Price, Energy Central podcast host and director with West Monroe, coming to you from New York City. And with me as always, from Orlando, Florida, is Energy Central producer and community manager, Matt Chester. Matt, the world of renewable energy is one that is growing both in scale but also in diversity of resources on the grid. Can you set the stage for us by reviewing the current penetration of renewable energy resources that make up today's grid mix?

 

Matt Chester:

Yeah, absolutely, Jason. And within the United States, we can pull this generation mix data directly from the US Energy Information Administration, so I did just that. And in 2022, those numbers shook out to find that the most prominent source on the US grid mix was natural gas at about 39%, followed by the totality of all renewables at 22%, coal at 20%, nuclear at 19%. And then within that renewable energy slice, since I know that's what we're talking about today, about half of it was provided by wind, 30% from hydropower, 16% from solar and the remaining 5% is broken out between geothermal, biomass and what EIA would classify as other renewables.

 

Jason Price:

Well, thanks for that, Matt. And while the snapshot provides key insights into what renewables look like today, one resource you didn't mention was wave energy, which is power generated from the constant motion of the waves of the ocean in coastal communities. While this technology has been researched for some years now, it hasn't made great headway into the grid mix, but our guest today is one of the leaders looking to change that. Joining us on the podcast today is Jan Skjoldhammer, the CEO and founder of NoviOcean. NoviOcean is one of the players in the emerging sector of wave energy generation, and so he's the key guy to talk about all things about this innovative resource. So let's see what we can learn from him. So Jan, welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Well, thank you very much, Jason and Matt. A pleasure to be with you and also a pleasure to talk to your listeners. I understand many of them have quite some experience and knowledge about the energy sector, so all the better, which I can possibly, let's say, enhance some of the knowledge in the wave energy sector.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah, absolutely. And we're thrilled to have you. And this call is taking place in New York City, Orlando, Florida and in Europe. Jan, where are you specifically today?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

I'm in Stockholm, just north of Stockholm, and I'm from Norway myself but living here for 20 years. And we have our small prototype out in the water outside of Stockholm as well, right now, giving energy to a small island and with full remote control, et cetera. So it works hard every day and night to give energy, even when there's no sun, by the way.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic. Well, we're going to dive into that and we're going to dive into the whole world of wave energy with you. So I'd love for you to introduce yourself more fully to our audience. Tell us your background and specifically how did you find yourself in this space?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yeah. I might have a bit uncommon background for being in this space. I am an ex-officer from the Air Force and I have an economics degree, and then I took an air transport pilot education and were flying airliners for 25 years as a pilot, captain and instructor. Also, by the way, flying air shows on the spare time with an old Douglas A-26 Invader from 1944. Took it back actually from Colorado when I was 28 years old across the Atlantic. Then I spent time doing car racing on the spare time, build my own race cars, where I learned a few things about mechanics. And also while flying, I did a rather large property deal. And then you might might wonder why am I working now with wave power.

Well, I had many patent IDs, since I was a youngster, seen many of them go into the market 25 years later on with other people. And after I did that property deal, I had some economic liberty for some years and I thought, "Well, am I'm going to fly now for 15 more years, nice job, nice colleagues, nice salary, or do something else?" And since I knew about this emergency in the climate, I thought for a while maybe I should do something about that. So I took out that patent ID and looked at it for a while, then decided to resign from SIS and do this instead. And I've been working with that for six years, full-time, much longer working days, much more difficult, much less pay, but much more meaningful.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah, understood. Very common sentiment with all sorts of entrepreneurs we've spoken to on Energy Central. So in the lead up to this, we've come across terminology like tidal power, tidal energy, wave energy. I'm assuming it's pretty much synonymous with each other, but we'd love to hear from you more about the fundamental principles involved, how efficient it is and what's the actual capacity potential we might be looking at with wave energy or tidal power or whatever you want to call it.

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yes. First of all, let's dive into the basics. The tidal power works with the horizontal streams of the water masses. So they normally have a propeller underwater and then going in one direction for six hours, then another direction for six hours. And that is mainly in the narrow areas, when you have straights, when water is flowing a bit faster. And wave power has a 10 times larger potential globally than tidal power because it's more common with larger waves. And wave power is as the name says, you drive energy from the wave motion. And the wave motion is circular actually. It looks up and down and forth and back, but it's a circular motion. And then you have two ways of doing it. It can work by the laws of Newton, meaning you have something in the water that restricts the movement of the particle, break in those particle. And the force show movement and resistance is what you do.

Or the other way is by using Archimedes principle, you lock air in the water when the wave is rising and then you let that buoy, whatever it is, rise upwards and extract that energy from the wave. And then there are different names of these systems, six, seven times. For instance, you have something called oscillated water column, quite common. You have an air chamber close to the coastline or out to sea, where you have pressurized air going up and down with the wave. And then we have an air turbine on top around and drives your generator. Or you can have oscillating wave surge where we have a plate in the water go forth and back. You've been driving a hydraulic cylinder for instance, you can have something called a bulge wave, like a carpet on the water that follows the waves and extract energy by that.

You can have a tube, that bends up and down with a hinge in the middle using hydraulics or we have a point absorber using the Archimedes principle locking air in the water, go up and down. As are more systems. You also have something called submerged pressure differential, something which is done under the water and you have a membrane. So by the weight of the water passing overhead, you can extract energy from that membrane compressing and then decompressing going up and down. And you have a few more ones, but they are the common ones which are used to extract energy. I should also mention that the first patent is more than 200 years old from wave power. So it's an old energy source, but so far, it's still quite new in many ways when it comes to going big time.

 

Jason Price:

Right. Well, I really appreciate the distinctions there. All of it leverages the ocean, but there are distinctions between tidal power and wave power. So thank you for that. So share with us what is the current state of the wave energy sector and how many different players are trying to innovate in this space and how close are you to wider deployment?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yes, I guess many of the listeners are used to material scale, technical readiness level. And there're quite many in the lower lexis, number 2, 3, 4 perhaps with some ID, they have some tank testing perhaps and trying to get this thing to move. There could be like 30 or 40 companies working on early innovation. Then they get to the level where we have finished the prototype testing in wave tanks and also have something offshore for quite some time. And then starting to work on the full scale design. I guess we should be something like 10 serious company in that sector, perhaps some more, 10 to 20. And then there's something like 10 more companies that have something full scale in the water and then trying to get into the higher scale like eight and nine. The problem is that most of these systems that are out in the water by full scale are very heavy or very complex and they very often give little energy out.

So if you combine those thing, you have very little output per ton. So the power to wave ratio is low, and that means the cost per kilowatt-hour, megawatt-hour if you like, is too high. And right now we have to compete with wind power and some power to some extent in those areas where there are no subsidies. And that's difficult if you have something which is costly per megawatt-hour. So yeah, quite a few bankruptcies in the sector as well because people are into what we think are the wrong sectors and it's a tough environment, other than being a harsh water waves and then it has to survive plus be efficient. So it's tough then. So it's very important to have the right requirements before we set in. And as we said before starting this thing fully out, I said it has to be light because light means lower cost and lower weight of the whole thing.

So we have a better power to wave ratio. It has to be very simple because simple is easier to survive and cheaper to build and maintain, you need few parts because they're also more cost-effective and the parts need to be cost or well proven over a long time before you can do this. If it's all new, the risk is that you're doing something wrong and it doesn't last. And altogether, that comes back to cost effectively. And lastly, you have to give heck of a lot of power to be in business. And I think many of the systems out there don't have all these check marks and that's why many are struggling. So it's important to have all these boxes ticked before you go in with the full investment and try something.

 

Jason Price:

My next question, maybe I just need to broaden it a little bit. I'm curious of what's the regulatory perspective on all this, but I don't understand the regulatory environment in Europe as I do in the United States, so maybe it's more of a governmental perspective in Europe. I'd love to hear if you have thoughts on has this been piloted, what have the regulators said? What have governments said? What kind of support you've received? Just what's the general environment like and how open are they to innovations like this?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

It is becoming more and more positive because now since we have more and more wind power and sun power out there, we're starting to feel the consequences of all this intermittency and the frequency of the net is struggling as well because of that. And as you know in California, your negative pricing for energy at daytime because the sun power in the summer is strong and at nighttime you have the opposite because there is no sun, et cetera. When the wind is strong, you have low prices. When the wind is gone in many countries, you have very high prices. So oscillations is difficult. And the clue with wave power is it's much more stable by itself. It's a much more stable energy source. Wind power, even offshore has a base load of 10%, meaning that's the lowest you produce per month. Perhaps for 10 days you have 10% of the output. And of course sun power is down to zero 12 hours per day.

But wave power generally is down to 30% at the lowest. So it's a much more stable energy source. So what happens? If that was the one power in the grids, you would need less fossils to burn the grids when there is no wind and no sun, you would need less storage as well. And if you use wind power or sun power plus storage will you have two sources. Both are costly and both are also, there's a weight on the climate because you have to produce those batteries and transport them and later on recycle them. So if you can get an energy source coming in which is more stable, you need less of those sources, the fossils and the storage system. So the energy mix, which is the common world, is much better adding wave power to it than just going by primarily low wind and solar.

For regular storage stuff otherwise, there are of course rules about this. You have to have permissions to be able to see, just like with wind power for instance. And the unit itself also needs to be approved by, for instance, Lloyd's or D&D. You have to follow ISO standards when you build it in many ways and have process confirmed. And out to sea, of course it needs to not make an impact on environment, no leakage, no environmental hazardly stuff on board, et cetera, et cetera. So it has to be approved just like any ship or any aircraft, which is costly but necessary. So yeah, it takes time. It's lengthy and it's costly, but it needs to be done. And of course, all of us players in this business which are serious, we try to comply with those rules and regs.

 

Jason Price:

All right. Well I have a two-pronged question for you, Jan.

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yep.

 

Jason Price:

First, why now and what do you think will be necessary to see this industry grow?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Well, I can add to that for the US site now. Just now, a company called AltaSea, an organization in California, they've been pushing forward to add funding for this. So Governor Newsom, I think it was a couple of weeks ago, approved the Senate Bill 605, which gives more money to this sector or funding in different ways. And it is because of just the reasons that just mentioned, that the other energy sources are intermittent and we need to have more stable energy sources in the mix. And wave power is probably the better one out there and the one coming around the corner quite soon.

And also the potential is important because right now the world is consuming something like 29,000 terabyte hours per year. And I guess what the estimations done by IRENA and IEA says that the wave energy potential globally is the same as the global electricity consumption. In the US, the numbers range from 30 to 60%, depending who's looking. So it is a vast energy source. It's out there, it's going to waste right now, every second, every hour, every day. It's just waiting to be extracted. It's a no-brainer in many way, in my opinion.

 

Jason Price:

Jan, talk about the pushback from coastal communities with offshore wind. Issues like concerns with sight lines, boating, impact to wildlife and the fishing industry. How does wave power address these challenges?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Well, it is definitely a problem. We see now in firsthand on land in Germany now for instance, there's a full stop towards wind turbine on land. Norway and Sweden also has a huge opposition towards those because people feel the disturbances, the noise and the problems with them. So it's difficult. Of course, offshore is easier depending on the distance from shore. Most people like to have it far out from shore because it kind of disturbs the visuals and also it makes some noise, especially because the wind is normally blowing towards the coastline. So it's really a problem. And wind power going far out, perhaps 50 kilometers out, quite commonly, meaning you have long, long subsea cables and also maintenance is expensive because the transport distance takes a couple of hours to drive out there.

For wave power, there has been very little resistance from the communities. Basically, it is of course competition for the sea area because people wants to use it for the fishermens, of course, they always want to keep their areas. So always, it takes two to three years to get the permissions through for the concepting process as they call. So that's an issue. But it's far more easy as far you can see it for wave power than for wind power as no one will be disturbed by it because it is so much lower in size. Wind power can go up in the air more than 200 meters with the props. And we just normally have less than five meters or perhaps 10 meters at the most. So very small then. And the noise is very low. And then it comes to the environmental issues. And many, many investigations have been done in this. And so far, well it's basically, none. Actually some positives because the sea life tend to grow on the anchoring points and stuff like that and make the shells and stuff.

So generally, it is very positive. And people can choose between having large offshore wind out there as opposed to wave power, they will quite often then take wave power. But one important thing is that they can be co-located because wind power turrets need often to be one kilometer apart out to sea because they have a so-called blanking effect because the props are so high or so long. So in between those areas you can have plenty of wave power.

Different measurements has different numbers, but it's quite common to state that you can extract two to five times more energy from the same sea area with wave power than you can by wind power. And also since they are off paced in timing, meaning perhaps when the wind is building up, you might have less waves. So then you have full power from the wind power turrets. But then when the wind is fading down, the wave remains for days. So we can power the same grid much more stable than just by having, for instance, only wind power. And then you have the permissions for the area, you have the subsea cable, and since they are operating intermittently, you will quite seldom be overloading that cable. So by working together in the same area, when there is wind and when there are waves and when the depth is suitable for both sources, it's actually also a no-brainer. It's the way to go.

 

Jason Price:

Jan, when we break it down though, we all know the key figure when it comes to deploying new energy technology is the economics. So how does the price of wave energy compare with existing grid resources and what improvements are being implemented to make the resources more attractive?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Very good question and highly relevant. The essence is that all new energy sources do have a high cost in the beginning, then you have a learning curve. For instance, wind power and sun power started at 60, 70 cents per kilowatt-hour. And no, onshore wind and solar is less than 5 cents per kilowatt-hour. Offshore though it's more expensive, so it is very often in the ranging, depending on the area size of course, from let's say eight to 20 cents even higher from some of the new floating solar. For wave power as well, it starts higher but not that high. The sector generally, when you see pre-commercial area for instance, just 20 or 50 units, are starting at something like 25 to 35 cents. And then you have the learning curve. But if you have the same learning curve and you start at the lower price than for instance wind power, you're going deeper more quickly, meaning it looks like wave power, at least the better ones, will go below offshore floating wind in not so many years.

And if you have a stable energy source, less visible, less noisy and better to the wildlife, has a less or lower lifecycle emissions, then things will happen. So even if wave power now is very low, the odds are this is going to be a really fast-growing sector once you get down to the price level you want. And regarding the way that's done is that in Europe now, the European Union wants to see 500 megawatt in the water before 2030 and they want to see 40 gigawatts in the water by 2050. And how to do that? Well, they have to use similar incentives. That means subsidy in different ways, CapEx or operational subsidies, feed-in tariffs if you like, as wind power and sun power had, but we can start at 50% of their cost.

And this has been now implemented in, for instance the UK. They're paying now I think about 250 per megawatt hour or 25 cents per kilowatt-hour of tidal power. And Taiwan has the same. Canada has some also for tidal power and even higher like 30 cents. And then we're now just waiting for European commission to sort this out by the member countries to be out there. US don't have it right now, but there are CapEx subsidies coming out through the new IRA Act, Inflation Reduction Act and also the new 605 bill in California. So that's the way to start this sector. And then you have the learning curve and then once we get down I think to about 10 cents per kilowatt-hour, that's when things will really take off. And that's not far away, at least in our system, we think we should, after about 100 megawatt in the water, be down to 10 cents and that's about 13 times faster than offshore wind had. And then we're coming below. So by my reports, we're coming and I think we're coming to come big when this happens.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah. I like the ambition here and I really am impressed with military pilot turned energy innovator storyline. Really impressive and really enjoyed nerding out on this topic. So I really appreciate you joining us today to share this, your insights on this innovative technology. Before we let you go, we have what's called the lightning round and we do want to give you the last word for today. So the lightning round is where we get to learn a little bit more about you, the person, rather than you, the professional. We give you five questions, we ask for a one word or phrase response. So Jan, are you ready?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yes, go ahead.

 

Jason Price:

All right. What is your comfort meal?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

That's a funny one. I try to avoid most of them because I'm trying to stay healthy and to survive these long days of work. But I have a sweet tooth, unfortunately. So some chocolate now and then and a biscuit now and then. That's what I do very easily. And when it comes to meal, we're buying sushi every Friday for instance. That's also a regular thing in our family.

 

Jason Price:

Okay. What superpower would you pick

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

To be able to see into the future.

 

Jason Price:

Since we're talking about wave energy, can you swim and what is your favorite beach activity?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Yes. I grew up in a summer house when I was young and been doing wind surfing for many years, especially when I was younger. I have a boat, go out as much as we can in the summer. I tried the kite surfing, it was good fun. And also this summer is something called the eFoil, it's like a surfboard, standing up on the foil going forward at good speed, was also fun. But basically, boating is what I do when it comes to the sea life.

 

Jason Price:

And if you didn't end up in your current role in the energy industry, what alternative career path might you have taken?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Well, I guess I have to do the opposite. The opposite because I did all the other stuff first. So now I'm into the sector here. I think this'll be my finding sector since I'm not that young anymore and I enjoy what I do. I do by the way, have a couple more patent IDs laying in my drawer, so don't feel too safe out there. More things might happen.

 

Jason Price:

Where do you see wave energy in 10 years?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

In big waves, say that way. Since there is a high need, there's a huge need for stable green energy and we can provide that. I think it will be the next largest surge in green energy. Energy will be wave power, and to some extent tidal power, but that is, as I said, 10% of the potential just in some areas as opposed to wave power. So as far as I can see, wave power is going to be the next big thing.

 

Jason Price:

Okay. And I told you you were goin to get the final word, and you know that Energy Central's audience is largely filled with utility industry representatives, so help us with the following. As you look to shepherd this new technology for the sector, what's the message you hope power companies take away? What action can they take today if they want to learn about and consider wave energy as a future energy resource?

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

First of all, anyone listening to this, welcome to look me up at LinkedIn, connect, let's have a chat. We are now soon coming up with an offer to utility companies. It has to do with the first project, which I think might be very interesting for them to look into. So I can't say too much here on the air, but it will be an offer they can take part in and come along with us and let's say have all the greenifying positives of that. They're coming on board the large float in a couple of years and with their own marketing team, media, politicians for instance. That's what we are going to offer. So I think they should be not sleeping, not waiting on the fence, which is very tempting, to wait for someone else to do the job, because the train might be leaving the station and it might be difficult to get on board afterwards. So contact me and other ones, and most welcome, benchmark all of us, and then see which one you want to work with.

And then importantly, in this sector, many are talking about error size, talking about rated power and numbers, which are not essential. Please, please look into validated numbers, look into the proven outputs, not the maximum power once every winter, look at the average power at some selected places, not only outside Ireland where the waves are high, look at what power we get out or France or California, for instance, and Oregon. And look into numbers because this sector has many people talking about let's say loose numbers or just flashy things. But do your homework, look into numbers, and then decide which one you go into work with. That's my final takeaway. Might be a bit harsh, but it's so important to get this thing going so that you don't waste your money and time on the wrong let's say solutions. That's what I hope they can do.

 

Jason Price:

Yep. Our audience is a pretty outspoken group, so they probably appreciate what you're saying and challenging and I'm fully confident you're going to have a lot of comments and responses in your inbox through the Energy Central platform. So we certainly want to stay in touch with you and understand where you're going to be. So maybe we could bring you back into the podcast booth perhaps a year from now to see how things have developed. Until then, we want to thank you again for sharing your insight here. And I really appreciate your time. I know it's getting late where you are in Sweden, but thank you again for joining us today.

 

Jan Skjoldhammer:

Well, thank you much for having me. A pleasure.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic. And you can always reach Jan through the Energy Central platform. We welcomes your questions and comments. And we also want to give a shout out of thanks to the podcast sponsors that made today's episode possible. Thanks to West Monroe. West Monroe works with the nation's largest electric, gas and water utilities in their telecommunication, grid modernization and digital and workforce transformations. West Monroe brings a multidisciplinary team that blends utility, operations and technology expertise to address modernizing aging infrastructure advisory on transportation electrification, ADMS deployments, data and analytics and cybersecurity. And once again, I'm your host, Jason Price. Plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com. And we'll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

 

About Energy Central Podcasts

The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. At least twice monthly, we connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network community member to discuss compelling topics that impact professionals who work in the power industry. Some podcasts may be a continuation of thought-provoking posts or discussions started in the community or with an industry leader that is interested in sharing their expertise and doing a deeper dive into hot topics or issues relevant to the industry.

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The Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast is hosted by Jason Price, Community Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

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