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Episode #140: 'DOE's Role in Guiding Reliable and Resilient Grid Planning' with Gene Rodrigues, Assistant Secretary for the Office of Electricity [an Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast]

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As utility leaders and professionals grapple with the ever-present challenges of grid reliability and resilience, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) plays a critical role to oversee and support stakeholders across the power sector. Bridging the federal energy policy space with on-the-ground utility insights is key to meeting these goals, and this episode of the podcast features a deep dive into that perspective from Gene Rodrigues, the Assistant Secretary of DOE’s Office of Electricity (OE).

With a career spanning both sectors, Gene’s insights provide a deep understanding of the current grid challenges, especially in light of recent natural disasters and changing energy demands. Listen in as Gene shares with podcast host Jason Price and Producer Matt Chester the OE's viewpoint on grid reliability amid these evolving challenges. Gene delves deep into the symbiotic relationship between the DOE and utilities, discussing grid edge resources, the strategy behind boosting generation and transmission capacity, and the undeniable impacts of deferred maintenance and supply chain strains post-pandemic.

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Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: West Monroe.  

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price: 

Welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast, the show that brings leading minds from the energy industry to discuss the challenges and trends that are transforming and modernizing our energy system. And a quick thank you to West Monroe, our sponsor of today's show. Now, let's talk energy.

I am Jason Price, Energy Central podcast host and director with West Monroe, coming to you from New York City. And with me as always, from Orlando, Florida, is Energy Central Producer and Community Manager, Matt Chester. Matt, the utility leaders of today have grid planning for reliability and resilience top of mind, but they're not the only ones across the various governmental agencies that guide, govern and provide resources to the utility sector. The top of that chain is the US Department of Energy. The DOE is a vast entity with hands in everything, from R&D, to policy incentives, to education and more. Can you remind our listeners from the guests from across DOE's enterprises that have joined us previously on the podcast?

 

Matt Chester: 

Absolutely, Jason. We always love hearing from experts all across the vast DOE landscape that you mentioned, and hearing the ways in which researchers, policymakers, and other stakeholders at the department are driving the power industry into the future.

We've been fortunate enough to feature Garrett Nilsen of DOE'S Solar Energy Technology Office. That was episode 43. We've had on David Nemtzow of the Loan Programs Office in episode 97. We've had experts from DOE'S National Lab System, places like LBNL with Will Gorman in episode 14, Timothy Pennington of Idaho National Lab for episode 118, and more. And we have all of these episodes featured on our playlist of episodes entitled Guests from the Government, which you can find on our podcast's SoundCloud page.

 

Jason Price: 

Thanks for that, Matt. And of course I ask because we're adding another esteemed name to that roster of DOE guests to the Power Perspectives Podcast. Specifically, we're going to the DOE's Office of Electricity in Washington DC, as we'll be joined by the Assistant Secretary Gene Rodrigues. Gene has held this role since the beginning of 2023, and like many at the DOE, he has quite an interesting career path that brought him ultimately to the federal space, which I'm sure we'll be hearing about today.

We're eager to hear Gene's perspective on grid planning today, and importantly, the insights he can provide to utility decision makers on how best to navigate the challenges that have been laying ahead. So let's bring him in. Gene Rodrigues, welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Hey, thanks guys. I appreciate the opportunity to come talk to you today.

 

Jason Price: 

Fantastic. Gene, before we dive into the substance of today, I'd love to give you a chance to more fully introduce yourself to our listeners. Tell us about your role at DOE's Office of Electricity and how you found yourself there. And going further back, while some the industry may have an inclination to assume that those in government can't possibly know what they themselves know about the utility sector, you've walked in the utility professional's shoes quite extensively. Isn't that correct?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

That is right. And so I guess to answer this question, I'll start with that part. I've actually spent my last 30-plus years working in the energy utility space. 24 of those were inside a utility, another eight consulting two utilities, and now finally in partnership with utilities in my role here at the Department of Energy.

What I don't think is the most important thing to know about me, but what I think is most important to know about me and by way of introducing myself to your audience is, is why? Why is it that I've chosen to stay in this industry for so long? And the short glib answer to that is because I recognize that our industry, the power sector, is foundational to the wellbeing of every American, to the economic prosperity of our nation, and to the security and global leadership of America.

But it's actually more personal than that. I actually flew here last night from California to get back to DC, and just by happenstance I was seated next to Louise Bryson. But for your audience, the name Bryson will probably ring a few bells because it refers to John Bryson. Louise is John's wife. And John Bryson was the CEO and president of Southern California Edison where I work. A great man, a great leader in our industry, but more importantly, he was the guy who introduced me to the notion that ours, the power sector, we're an industry that's affected by the public interest. And that's something that's stuck with me for over three decades, affected by the public interest.

I think that's the reason I've stayed in this sector for so long. That's the reason why I came out of retirement to work here at the Office of Electricity. At OE we're focused on reliability, resilience, security, and affordability. And quite frankly, I can't think of a more important set of criteria, a more important set of issues to work on in the final chapter of my professional career. So that's what brought me here, that's why I am staying here. And that's kind of everything you need to know about Gene Rodrigues in a nutshell.

 

Jason Price: 

Well, I appreciate that. All right, so now help our listeners understand the impact you make on the industry.

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Yeah, so that, a great question. Let me start off by speaking about, if you look at the function or the role of the Office of Electricity, you would say, well, the way you work with the industry, the way we work with the power sector, is we do the public interest research development and demonstration that helps to allow the power sector to make the right investment decisions on the right technologies that will help keep our grid reliable into the future.

I think that's only part of the story. The thing I've been working on here is actually focusing even more less on the sparkly technology. We're going to continue to do that, we will always do that, but more on how we work with industry, and that is through engagement, through convening. I recognize, having spent so many years within the sector, that decisions aren't made at the C-suite of the utility. They aren't made in the offices here in the Forrestal Building in Washington DC at the Department of Energy, they're actually made by all stakeholders working together with the local serving utility to come up with the right investment decisions, to come up with the right operational decisions, that help to ensure the grid stays stable and secure.

So it's not just research. What it is is reaching out and working together with people face-to-face, the utility sector, the manufacturers, the other stakeholders in the process, bringing us all together through the convening power of the department, to help us all to get on a path toward creating a 21st century grid to serve the American people. That's what we do and that's how we do it. And that's what we're going to do more of as we look into the future, because quite frankly, the role has got impact. If we can't be impactful in helping the utility sector out there to make the decisions, to make the investment, to make the operational changes necessary to stay reliable, then there's no reason for me to sit here and there's no reason for our office to exist.

 

Jason Price: 

All right. Well, reliability is often a major topic in the Energy Central community, as well as on the podcast. And we are literally recording this during hurricane season, the aftermath of the devastating wildfires in Hawaii and Idalia in Florida. So speak to us about the role of the Office of Electricity regarding reliability, and what it means to prioritize this aspect of the grid across all the other things that are impacting the grid.

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

A fabulous question again. I think our perspective here at the Office of Electricity and my personal perspective is relatively simple, relatively straightforward, and that's to note that reliability, resilience, it's the foundation, or in lawyer speak, the condition precedent for anything and everything else that you might want to accomplish. Our industry works like this. Every region, every state, every local government for goodness' sake, is going to have its own policy priorities for energy, for economic development, for climate, for equity, for you name it, anything, anything and everything that's out there.

But none of these things, no matter how important they are, none of these things can be addressed if our energy deliveries infrastructure and system isn't reliable and isn't resilient. Because just think about it, as a common sense proposition, if we don't have reliable energy service, then there's no oxygen left in the room for anything else to be taken up. So it is the foundation for everything else that we want to accomplish, whether in local government or in a business sector or even at a utility. If we can't keep the lights on, if we can't keep reliability up to the levels expected, then nothing else matters.

 

Jason Price: 

At the DOE you have a macro perspective of what's going on, and especially, if we look at the recent events that I had mentioned, whether the disasters that are happening now or will be continuing throughout the season. What Are the lessons learned? What are the lessons you think we should collectively be taking away from all this?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Thank you for that. The lessons I think that have been learned over the last decade or the last 20 years even, are the lessons that people have learned in the utilities every single week of the year. And that is this, we need to acknowledge that the frameworks, whether they be regulatory or business frameworks, but the frameworks, the tools, the mindsets, everything about the past that has served us well for the last 100 years isn't necessarily going to serve us well over the next decade, or even the next 20 or 30 years.

I can't recall how many times I've heard a utility CEO, a utility executive, say on some stage somewhere that our industry is going to change more in the next 10 years than it has over the last 100. Well, the fact that you have so many people saying that tells me that we have to do the job in our industry, whether it's here at the DOE or from the utility sector itself, of helping to convince the rest of the world that the time for taking reliability for granted, that's gone. We now have what used to be planned for as a once in 100-year storm happening every 10 years. We now see extreme weather events that are more extreme, more dangerous and more destructive than anything we've seen in the past. And then we see them rolling in one after another. We see cold weather snaps going all the way to Texas. You name it, it's been happening, and the wildfire risk on top of all of that.

So we cannot be mired in all of the thinking, all the mindset, all the processes of the past, and not allow us to evolve with the changes that we need to be taking together. When I'm feeling overly glib or maybe even a little dismissive, I'll say things like, you can't drive a car by looking through the rearview mirror, you have to look out the front windshield. Well, no one proves that and no one understands that more than the utility sector. And it's time that we do a better job, all of us, in helping the legislators, the regulators, the policymakers, and even the consumers understand that changes need to be made in how we've done things in the past if we are to keep our system reliable, resilient, secure, and stable.

 

Jason Price: 

Okay. All right. Looking at the energy system different than the past, so from your perspective, how do we think about grid edge resources in utility grid planning?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

For me, that's the $30,000 question, $30,000 because I spent the last 30-plus years being a cheerleader for all the wonderful work that we in the utility sector have done to help build up this tremendous, tremendous potential on the grid edge. And when we call upon it in an emergency situation, it's there. California has had headlines about how conservation helped keep the grid stable, but I think everyone from the utility sector, all of us who are on this podcast, recognizes something. And that is, we've barely scratched the surface of how to, in a more fulsome way, use grid edge resources to be an actual resource rather than just this very interesting and sparkly potential that's out there on the edge.

And that's going to require us to think about all kinds of stuff, isn't it? It's going to require us to think about changing the way we do planning to include whether and to what extent we can count on those resources to be part of providing grid services other than the occasional conservation effect, et cetera. That have great customer service value, but aren't really carrying its weight in terms of the investments and operational decisions that a utility needs to be made.

It's going to mean that we need to make investments in getting better visibility, and maybe in some cases better controllability, of those assets and resources at the grid edge. There are countless, hundreds of millions of them out there. Obviously we can't put a meter on every light bulb, but we sure as heck can do a better job of getting better visibility, better understanding of how they're operating on the edge.

And the other thing we're going to have to do is, quite frankly, change some of our business model, some of our contractual approaches to how we handle these resources. Let me ask you this question. Who is best, absolutely best situated, to understand what the impact of these resources, whether disaggregated or aggregated in some fashion, who's best able, best capable, of being able to figure out how to put them to productive use? Well, we know the answer. It's the folks inside the utilities who actually wrestle with these decisions, day in and day out. So I don't believe we can continue on a process where we treat them as just a resource that we'll call upon under a contractual vehicle, and not worry, not be involved in, not have a better understanding of how those assets are being managed, because it's the utility that has the ultimate responsibility for reliability, not some contractual vehicle.

A long story made short, it's time to get past the cheerleading phase about the potential on the grid edge, and do the hard work of rolling up our sleeves in the utility sector and, quite frankly, the stakeholders outside of the utility, to figure out how to put those grid edge resources to a more abundant and fruitful use as a true cost-effective, reliable resource. And not just in a onesie, twosie manner, but to actually make it part of the system in the way that it needs to be.

 

Jason Price: 

All right. Well, Gene, I'm going to respectfully disagree. Why? Because I'm the host, I can do that, all right.

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Yes, you can.

 

Jason Price: 

What I want to ask is that, okay, reliability is an issue here. The answer is, and we heard it this past summer, Elon Musk and Bill Gates said, I think it was the EEI Conference, "We need to build more. Build more generation, build more transmission, make more room for capacity." So build, build, which I think you might be suggesting to some degree. There's got to be other ways and other pathways to address some of this, and what could those be? I mean, are you looking at that and what are your thoughts around that?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Yeah, I will tell you that's a lesson that's been beat into me since my days as a volleyball player on the Northern Arizona Lumberjack volleyball team. It's hit smarter, not harder. And anyone who's worked inside a utility knows that while it's true, we do need to build out more capacity, both in resources but also in the grid, make investments in getting that power where it's located to where it's needed. But anyone who's worked in the utility space, even for a short period of time, will tell you the answer isn't build recklessly, build with reckless abandon, but the answer is optimization. You have to look at every option, everything that's available to you out there, and find what the right set of resources are, what the right set of investments are, that will get the affordability part of reliability, resilience, and security. We recognize that, everyone on this.

So yes, I'm saying more investments need to be made on better understanding of what those resources are on the grid edge. But I'm also saying yes, we need to build new transmissions. Certainly we're going to continue to invest in new generation in our country, and quite frankly, we need to find out how to get more bang for the buck from existing transmission corridors, from existing infrastructure. We're not working at this as blank sheet of paper and draw what the state-of-the-art system might look at today. The folks who are on this podcast, they all recognize that they have to work with the existing conditions, existing needs, and figure out how to modernize and optimize their set of investments, while they modernize the grid.

I guess my answer is all of the above isn't possible because we don't have unlimited access to capital, but that tells us that we need to do what utilities are very good at, and that's optimizing, optimizing against a whole set of solutions to come up with the right answer. And that right answer is going to depend on system conditions, on regulatory conditions, on all kinds of things that are much more local. There's no one-size-fits-all answer. So in all due gratitude for the great work being done by the folks you talked about standing up on stages, they're right, but they're only partially right, and the real answer is through optimization.

 

Jason Price: 

Let's switch gears for a moment. Supply chain still remains a major issue. I mean, it was certainly exacerbated during COVID, and even out of COVID, if you were to even argue that we're out of it, continues. Share with us what is the office doing in this area addressing supply chain issues and what kind of relief are you seeing, if at all, around the corner in this area?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Yeah, that's a fabulous question, isn't it? I'm sitting here in my office, looking out the window, and the world outside that I see, I think it's become a little complacent. It's taken for granted. I think the reliability of our system over the last century has been just a marvelous engineering miracle. I mean, it was a tremendous undertaking and it's something we should be proud of. Just the fact that we've had that doesn't mean that's going to continue forever. And the supply chain issues that have popped up since the pandemic are becoming, quite frankly, an issue that every utility is dealing with, and certainly that we are dealing with here at the Department of Energy.

We're dealing with it in a couple ways from my office and from the department writ large. And so if you'll allow me, I'll start with my office. The research development and demonstration that we do is focused obviously on increasing performance, cutting costs, et cetera. It's also focused on finding ways to use materials, products, components, systems, subsystems, that can be more securely provided for through domestic supply chains. Throughout the department you'll see efforts, including in the billions and billions and billions of dollars that are being spent through the Bipartisan Infrastructure law and other investments out there. Some of that money is going to making sure that American labor, American industry, and American supply chains are part and parcel of what we're developing in the country.

But I think more importantly, and going back to an earlier theme that we started with, one of the things that we're doing here that I'm very proud of is that here in the Department of Energy, and that includes my office but also all the other offices in the department, we're working to spearhead a convening with both the power sector and with manufacturers around addressing some of the most pressing supply chain issues that we can take on together. And we're doing that with also in partnership with our friends from other parts of the administration, Department of labor, Department of Commerce, the manufacturing and energy supply chain folks, bringing everyone together in a room to, first, understand where the greatest stresses are, and then go to work figuring out how not to admire the problem, but how to address the problem.

And I think that's the most important part here. It's really not about a specific program or initiative, it's about a process of engagement with the power sector, engagement with the manufacturing sector, engagement with everyone involved, and that includes labor, to find out how we can alleviate some of those issues for the near term certainly, but also what changes we can make in the products and the materials and the components so that we have less reliance on more fragile supply chains, and greater reliance on good domestic supply chains that create jobs and solve our problems in the near term.

 

Jason Price: 

Before we head to the lightning round, I have one more question to ask you-

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Please.

 

Jason Price: 

... and that is, in our lead up when we first connected, you talked a bit about and we discussed the whole notion of deferred maintenance that the utilities take. I'd love to hear from you, is there something that the DOE can do, what role can they play? First of all, if you don't mind defining it for us, the audience, but then what is the role that DOE sees around the areas of addressing deferred maintenance?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

That's fabulous, and thank you for asking me to define it because where I come from, having spent almost a quarter of a century inside the utility and much of that time in the regulatory process, deferred maintenance has two definitions. Inside the utility it's those things that could be put off until later and so you do it, whether it's because of uncertainty about whether we need to invest right now or for other reasons, regulatory appetite or the willingness of rate payers to fund those investments. Those sorts of decisions are always going to be made, and that's classically what deferred maintenance is. These days when I hear people throw around the term deferred maintenance, it's sometimes from the outside and people throwing rocks and saying, "Well, you should have done this 10 years ago or five years ago or last year. And because of that, we have a problem today."

I would say that the real question on the table isn't whether there's been deferred maintenance, that's all recognized. There's all kinds of things, investments and maintenance, that are deferred over time, that's how you balance everything out. But the real question we should be addressing with our regulators, with the policymakers, within industry and here at the department, is why, why is it that we're not making investments today that can or perhaps even should be made in the nearer term rather than the longer term? Because those are the things we need to work on together.

And from our side at the department, the kinds of things we're trying to do is, if there's uncertainty in the regulatory process for why a regulator might not allow a utility to make an investment today because it's not a compelling case yet that it's needed, we are trying to do the work that we can do to show how these technology investments, these operational improvements, can actually not just help reliability today, but support resilience into the future. To create models that create a little more certainty about the return on investment for those things.

So the bottom line here is, let's not worry about whether or not things have been deferred, let's figure out how to ensure that we can get the right information and the right support for the kinds of decisions, the kinds of investments, that need to be made today to, quite frankly, insulate ourselves from some of the harm that could happen down the road if we keep kicking the can down the road on things we don't fully understand yet. And that specifically goes to resiliency investments, because resilience is really hard to figure out, how do you quantify a resilience investment made today for something that may never happen? And I think we need to work together to figure out how to free up people to make the right decisions, the right investment decisions, and the right operational decisions to create a more reliable and more resilient grid for us all.

 

Jason Price: 

Well, much appreciate that insight, Gene. And I certainly have thrown a lot of tough questions at you and you've handled them nicely and we really appreciate that.

And it's only going to get harder from here because we have what's called the lightning round. In the lightning round we get to learn a little bit more about you, the person, rather than the professional. So we've got five questions we want to send your way. Each question is followed by one word or a phrase. First of all, are you ready?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Okay. I buckled my seatbelt, I'm ready.

 

Jason Price: 

Okay. What's your go-to snack on a road trip?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

That's an easy one. Wasabi peas, they're easy to eat and the horseradish will keep you awake and alert.

 

Jason Price: 

What book, album or movie are you bringing with you to a deserted island?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Oh God, I love all kinds of stuff. I'll say, if it's going to be the one album I get to listen to over and over and over again, it's going to be Small Change by Tom Waits. It's a work of genius.

 

Jason Price: 

What do you do to encourage your household to reduce their waste and energy use?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Okay, this is going to get me in trouble. When I do it right, it's listen to my wife, because she's always on me about all the terrible things I do or don't do that I really ought to be doing around the house.

 

Jason Price: 

What's something about working as an appointed federal employee that might surprise most people?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Yeah, I think that it's more important to listen and learn than to lecture. I think people think that federally appointed folks come in with all the answers, the way an obnoxious consultant does when they come into your office.

 

Jason Price: 

Assuming your federal clearance gives you carte blanche to any office, which would you like to spend for a day and why?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Ooh. Okay, International Affairs. I think International Affairs because everyone on this podcast recognizes that energy is at the core of all geopolitical decision making, but I don't know how well that's understood.

 

Jason Price: 

Well, that was nicely handled, so you're par for the course here. Thank you for allowing us to learn a little bit more about you. And we want to give you the final say and last word of the podcast, so we'll keep it open-ended. What's the final message you hope the utility leaders listening in will take away from today?

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

It's just this, and thank you for allowing me to have that final word. Let me ask this of all of us, and that includes the folks from the department and the utility leadership as well, let's not be so proud that we continue to allow reliability to be taken for granted by everyone who doesn't work inside our industry. We all know what a big job it is, and I think we're just a little too shy about letting people know that it's going to take a lot more work, a lot more investment, and a lot more of us working all together to continue to ensure that.

 

Jason Price: 

That was terrific, Gene. Thank you very much for joining us today. I know you're a busy man. You've got a very important role in trying to help the nation transform its energy and reliability, and I have no doubt that the community at Energy Central have a lot of comments and questions to post. So I hope you stay engaged with us and hope you have a chance to engage with some of the members who might be posting their questions. So until then, thanks again for sharing your insight on today's episode of the podcast.

 

Gene Rodrigues: 

Thank you, guys, very much. You have the most important audience in the world to me, so I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

 

Jason Price: 

Well, thank you. And we also want to give a shout out of thanks to the podcast sponsors that made today's episode possible. Thanks to West Monroe. West Monroe works with the nation's largest electric gas and water utilities in their telecommunication, grid modernization, and digital and workforce transformations. West Monroe brings a multidisciplinary team that blends utility, operations, and technology expertise to address modernizing aging infrastructure, advisory on transportation electrification, ADMS deployments, data and analytics, and cybersecurity.

And once again, I'm your host Jason Price. So plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com. And we'll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

About Energy Central Podcasts

The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. At least twice monthly, we connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network community member to discuss compelling topics that impact professionals who work in the power industry. Some podcasts may be a continuation of thought-provoking posts or discussions started in the community or with an industry leader that is interested in sharing their expertise and doing a deeper dive into hot topics or issues relevant to the industry.

The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ is the premiere podcast series from Energy Central, a Power Industry Network of Communities built specifically for professionals in the electric power industry and a place where professionals can share, learn, and connect in a collaborative environment. Supported by leading industry organizations, our mission is to help global power industry professionals work better. Since 1995, we’ve been a trusted news and information source for professionals working in the power industry, and today our managed communities are a place for lively discussions, debates, and analysis to take place. If you’re not yet a member, visit www.EnergyCentral.com to register for free and join over 200,000 of your peers working in the power industry.

The Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast is hosted by Jason Price, Community Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

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