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Len Gould 4.13.09 |
I'm reserving my opinion on your article until I hear the result/price of the bids for new nuclear in Ontario, Canada in May. btw. Scientific American this month. World food dtocks in storage now down to 62 days reserve, from typical 145 days in 1990's.
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Ernest Siddall 4.14.09 |
Too bad that in a long article he does not say [1] what kinds of solar plant India, for instance should plan for [2] what kind of grid system would cope with the erratic nature of the source [3] what would it all cost. He does not need to knock nuclear: everybody loves solar! Ernest Siddall April 14
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Steve Clark 4.15.09 |
I've heard the spin on the solar savior for our energy system for many years. Of the few 'negatives' discussed, there has yet to appear a meaningful discussion about what this free energy source does in our current environment. If we 'steal' this energy before it hits the ground what impact might this have on the balance of nature? At best, we might get 200 MW from a 1300 acre field, a very large piece of ground! What affect, if any, will the resulting 'cold spot in the dirt' have? Is there lost reflective energy that might also have some detrimental affects? Considering the enormous amount of surface area involved to obtain any really meaningful amount of power, do we have enough of a grasp on the big picture? For some reason I envision this immense tabletop with nothing but bare frozen ground underneath.
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Malcolm Rawlingson 4.19.09 |
Sounds good. How much energy will be required to manufacture all those solar panels? I am sure they do not grow on banyan trees. Your data on nuclear power is very much coloured by your opinion and has no basis in fact. Nuclear power is the cheapest form of electrical generation all fuel costs included. "Killer atoms" what bunkum. Malcolm
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William Hornbaker 4.21.09 |
Basically there are only TWO sources of energy for any/all aplications of human usage. Fossil and Solar. All others, are derivatives of these two. Solar accounts for almost if not all of the derivatives. Vegetation, weather water cycles, wind, and ocean currents, tides. What is needed is a simple, inexpensive, and reliable means of energy storage for such times as the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, and there is no rain in needed areas.
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Mathew Hoole 4.21.09 |
In India, the urban areas are very dense. Where will all the solar panels be put? What will happen to energy levels during the rainy season? How do you plan to deal with storm damage? Knowing how expensive solar is, how will the poorest 80% pay for it? In my view due to the urbanisation problem and land stress in India, wouldn't a better solution be one where a maximum amount of energy is generated from as little additional land use as possible, and manage to offer reliable supply. Imagine how well a solar powered car (without backup) would function in India, and compare that to its cost? Then imagine how well a solar powered car would function in India with a backup energy system that could guarantee supply until the sun shone again. And now imagine if such a thing existed what would be the additional cost. And then imagine (for the wind supporters) how effective would a solar car be if it included a sail. Do you really think such a vehicle would get you to and from work each day (even if it also had a 2 hour backup battery)? Now if you can agree that the solar car would be a poor allocation of resources, and inneffective then the same can be said for solar panels for baseload generation (even if it is gridded). Solar energy is an energy source with a high level of intermittancy, and as it requires indefinite backup, a high level of redundancy. It is also a high cost energy resource, and requires huge amounts of space. For these reasons alone solar should not be considered for baseload energy usage. I fail to see how solar can be so enthusiastically supported, when it has such severe shortcomings. Cheers
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Mathew Hoole 4.21.09 |
Mr Menon You suggest that uranium atoms are killer atoms. How many in India have died from such atoms from a baseload energy source ? And in comparison how many have died in India from the types of atoms used to make solar panels? Although the answers would he difficult to quantify we know the answer would be extremely low for the first question and comparatively extremely high for the second. Cheers
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Len Gould 4.22.09 |
It's incredible how resilient is the common bias against solar. eg. central solar thermal with thermal storage and 3x collector / generation capacity is able to deliver 83% reliability, dispatchable, at competitive cost with nuclear or fossil (at today's prices, with long-term price stability), if just some relatively small volume manufacturing were implemented. Perhaps simply explained by the fact that many posters here work for incumbent utilities. [QUOTE]For the more technically aggressive low-cost case, S&L found the National Laboratories’ “SunLab” methodology and analysis to be credible. The projections by SunLab, developed in conjunction with industry, are considered by S&L to represent a “best-case analysis” in which the technology is optimized and a high deployment rate is achieved. The two sets of estimates, by SunLab and S&L, provide a band within which the costs can be expected to fall. The figure and table below highlight these results, with initial electricity costs in the range of 10 to 12.6 ¢/kWh and eventually achieving costs in the range of 3.5 to 6.2 ¢/kWh. The specific values will depend on total capacity of various technologies deployed and the extent of R&D program success. In the technically aggressive cases for troughs / towers, the S&L analysis found that cost reductions were due to volume production (26%/28%), plant scale-up (20%/48%), and technological advance (54%/24%).[/QUOTE] Given Sargent & Lundy Engineering's worst case scenario provides peak time solar electricity at $0.062/kwh by only building 2.8 GW and doing a few minor and definitely achievable R&D improvements, plus transmission, and a clear path is provided to offering 83% capacity factor using cheap sand and gravel tanks for thermal storage with 3x collector area and no additional central plant, which should make the installation no more expensive PER KWH if only the industry can get to 2.8 GW installed, I don;t see what we are waiting for. It also appears to me that the more agressive forecasts of NREL / SunLab of $0.035 / kwh if we can get to 8.2 GW insalled quite quickly is entirely within reach.
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Len Gould 4.22.09 |
I also note that India's northwestern desert provides an ideal near-perfect environment for solar thermal installation.
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Jim Beyer 4.22.09 |
If I was India, I'd start collecting all the high grade Thorium lying on my beaches. Then I'd go to some country like the U.S., Canada, Britain, or France, and suggest a co-development strategy to develop Thorium-based nuclear power technology. Shake them down for a few bucks and perhaps some technical expertise. I'd build a demonstration reactor, and then a work to develop a standard design of 500-2000 MW. I'd develop the processes to build these systems in large quantity. I'd make the design as "open" as feasible so others could be comfortable with it and suggest improvements. Then I'd sell a whole bunch of them both domestically and internationally.
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Jim Beyer 4.22.09 |
Len, I hear what you are saying, but the proof is in the pudding. At some point, someone needs to demonstrate this technology. I guess that since that hasn't happened (yet) then maybe those numbers have to be looked at more critically (from SunLab and others). Not to (publicly) rain on the solar thermal parade but my concern is that the low overall density (energetically) of the system might raise costs compared to what is stated. The collection system is also low density may mean maintenance costs could be problematic. Finally, the low density of collection means that heat losses from collection to the thermal storage could reduce efficiency. A 50 MW system (continuous) would require at least 300,000 square meters of collectors. That's a lot of area (and equipment) for such a small plant.
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Mathew Hoole 4.22.09 |
Len Aren't the few solar thermal plants that are out there in more arid parts of the world? I don't know too many countries that have a high population density in such regions. How effective would they be in less optimal areas where coincidently most energy would be demanded. Don't Solar Thermal Plants have some form of built in backup eg gas? If so, why not just use the gas, rather than the gas and solar panel arrays? Surely that would be far more efficient especially in areas where solar energy is less optimised ie most regions where people live. Even if there was no backup, how would solar thermal plants function during periods of prolonged cloud, and I don't just mean prolonged cloud in a local area? Molten salt at its optimised best, can feed a turbine for how long? I will admit solar thermal is better than just solar, but that does not mean it is an effective solution. Cheers
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Len Gould 4.23.09 |
All commentors should read the Sargent & Lundy engineering report referenced above. Thanks.
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Len Gould 4.23.09 |
I also agree on Jim's recommendation re: thorium reactors. A perfect system for India would be 50% baseload thorium breeder reactors with another 50% solar thermal peakers with just enough thermal storage or natural gas burner backup on the solar thermal to make them reliable peaker sources. India has a huge resource of thorium, with a beach on the southwest side where nearly unlimited thorium can simply be scooped up on the surface.
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Len Gould 4.23.09 |
Mathew: India has a huge uninhabitable desert area in the northwest. Approximately northwest between Mumbai and Delhi. INDIA-ENERGY: THAR DESERT COULD BE WORLD'S SOLAR POWERHOUSE - (fee payment required) Neena Bhandari Inter Press Service English News Wire 04-23-1996 JAIPUR/India, Apr. 22 (IPS) -- If the vast expanse of the Thar desert in northwestern India was harnessed to produce solar energy, it could light up five of Asia's most populated cities. Scientists say the endless sands of Rajasthan state could well earn the distinction of being the "biggest" solar powerhouse by 2010, producing 10,000 megawatts of electricity. The Rajasthan Energy Development Agency (REDA) has started the spade work on an ambitious project. "A major chunk of the desert, about 13,500 square miles, will be declared a Solar Energy Enterprise Zone like the one in Nevada (in the United States)," says director
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Len Gould 4.23.09 |
BTW, almost all of India is within about 1200 miles of the Thar desert. Would need a lot of pumping to get enough cooling water inland from the Arabian Sea but the resulting desalination capacity using ?waste thermal / excess off-peak nuclear and solar electricity? could be another boon to the local economy.
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Ferdinand E. Banks 4.30.09 |
I've discovered the ideal way to approach solar energy: don't think about it. The ignoramus who is the head of the Swedish energy office/bureaucracy believes that solar and wind can replace nuclear. In his world they can, because although he is a PhD in technical physics, he is basically without a clue. Something like Josef Goebbels when he was sending those battalions of overage fools out to face the Soviet tanks.
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It's easy to contribute articles, article proposals, commentary and analysis and be published online through Energy Central!
Sound interesting? Contact the editor for more information.